Talk:Tomato sauce

Pescatora, Marinara, "neapolitan" and other kinds of sauces

As from Naples in Italy I can say this article is full of errors and refers wannabe "foreign" italian sauces like "Fra Diavolo" as italian, while in Italy this kind of recipe for sauce it is quite unknown.

The correct word for sauces and food containing seafood it is "Alla Pescatora" ("fisherman style"), while Marinara ("sailor style") stands quite normally only for "Pizza alla marinara" that indicates Pizza garnished with only liquid tomato sauce, olive oil, salt and some garlic.

Also there are absurdities like those stating that neapolitan sauces are full of garlic and spicy!!! Absolutely false. these garnishments are used in very few quantitites and only in some minor recipes. Certainly these recipes are spicy and full of taste, but are minor ones.

"Sunday Gravy"

The two paragraphs theorizing about the term "Sunday gravy" (beginning with "Some Italian Americans...") do not have references, are likely purely anecdotal and should be removed.

Spope3 (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Also chili pepper is used in Calabria region cuisine, and not in neapolitan cuisine.

With respect. --Raffaele Megabyte 15:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you are hitting on an important point. I think it may be helpful to create a seperate section for Italian American sauces (which have had about 100 years to develop on their own, away from Italy). Just like the article on pizza, draws such a distinction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 01:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Precursors?

OK, what did Europeans use before tomatoes for a pasta sauce? Not even McGee says anything about that. Figs? There must have been some food niche that it filled in Italy, just as chillis did in South Asia (that is more obvious). So?

Probably olive oil and a number of vegetables or fish thrown into the sauce. Also, pesto is a very old sauce, which is also olive oil based. It is important to remember that tomatoes were embraced more in the south than in the north. In Venetian cuisine, for instance, you hardly find tomatoes, eggplant, peppers, or anything else identified as "foreign." The Venetians used a lot of black pepper, which was more expensive than gold at the time. Venice was the NYC of its day, making its money by monopolizing the Indian spice trade. This is why the Spanish contracted Columbus and so many other mariners: to find a way around the Venetian stranglehold and gain access to the wealth of the east.

Anyway, I digress. I have a cookbook by Valentina Harris called "Southern Italian Cooking." In there it says the earliest pasta recipes came from the Arabs (a hundred years before Marco Polo's run to China) who took ceci beans and made a loose felafel-like mixture, and fried it into crepes. The bean crepes were then sliced into strips and tossed with whatever the family had: leftover meat, wild greens, chestnuts which were very cheap back then, and herbs. Pasta was basically a way to stretch the meal, like bread.72.78.11.48 13:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

More Marinara

Having edited the Marinara paragraph, I'm not really sure why it's not a article of its own. The first paragraph is pretty dubious too, but I don't have time to edit it now. It's all very well to put a disclaimer about the recipe at the bottom, but still... — Moilleadóir 12:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Marinara

Can anyone with knowledge of authentic Italian cooking comment on marinara? I heard somewhere that pasta alla marinara could have just about anything on it -- one description I read said something like "the cook put in everything but his horse". --FOo 23:40, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

As a far as I ate it in Italy, Marinara is when "There is seafood in there", especially "mussels" or "Vongole" = "Clams". Spagetti alla marinara have a tomato sauce with mussels or clams in it. In French kitchen, Mussels & marinara (Moules marinières), are mussels with a cream and white wine with herbs based food.

Marinara does not have fish in it. This is a tourist invention based on the expectations of the tourists. "Marinara" refers to mariners, who needed a quick dish to make, as they were on the clock and fire is dangerous on any ship, especially the tiny fishing boats they used. It is a contrast to a ragu, which could cook for hours.72.78.181.23 (talk) 14:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

HAM!

I realize there's a disclaimer that 'this is just one of hundreds of recipes' but is it really that common for italian tomato sauces to start out with HAM ground up in it, then strained?? I mean, surely there's one archetypal manner of saucery, which belongs in that first paragraph, and SURELY said proto-sauce lacks hammage.. I always thought the mainstay of the sauce was roasted or oven-cooked stewed tomatoes blended with wine..

Marinara is a Misnomer for tomato sauce without meat

Marinara is a tomato sauce for pasta, pizza, or dipping which contains seafood in a tomato sauce. From the Italian 'alla marinara' or 'sailor style', marinara sauce usually includes tomatoes, onions and herbs and can include a variety of seafoods such as scallops, oysters, and anchovies.

Marinara has become a misnomer for any type of tomato sauce, which does not contain meat, particularly in the United States. In Italy, much of Europe, and many of the finer restaurants in the United States, marinara specifically indicates that the tomato sauce contains seafood. Tomato sauce without meat or seafood is referred to as "Napoletana" whereas tomato sauce with meat is referred to as "Bolognese".

• I don't think the preponderance of the evidence is on your side, based on a quick google search. There is indeed a number of seafood dishes known as "alla marinara", but I believe that on the whole it's a regional usage. There does seem to be an older salsa marinara that is based on wine and seafood, but I don't think it's all that common and doesn't have tomato in it. A couple of cites: a recipe in Italian Lidia Bastianich's recipe Now if a Lidia cite isn't authoritative, I don't know what is. Haikupoet 01:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

"Marinara" does mean sailor style, but as Lydia's recipe points out, it has more to do with being a quick, thrown together sauce, rather than a well simmered one. To say it must have fish in it, I think misreads the title. After all, pasta puttanesca doesn't have prostitutes in it, right? Puttanesca refers to pasta made "whore style" (derived from the fact that a lot of prostitutes hate to kiss their johns, so they ate pungent, smelly things like garlic, anchovies, peperoncino, etc.). Most Italian food names indicate the process of how something is made: Mozzarella (mozzare - to pull into little balls), sopressata (pressed or compressed), tagliatelle (cut up or made into strips), etc. 72.78.11.48 13:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Confusing article

This is a very confusing article. This is perhaps best illustrated by this para:

In the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and India the term "tomato sauce" normally refers to the condiment otherwise known as tomato ketchup, whereas in Canada and the US, "tomato sauce" replaces "marinara sauce" and never refers to ketchup. In these countries, other sauces made with tomatoes are more usually referred to as pasta sauce etc., depending on their uses. In Australia, the term marinara often refers to a tomato-based seafood dish such as spaghetti marinara or marinara pizza.

But the confusion seems to pervade the entire piece.

I agree that in Aust tomato sauce is close to the US ketchup. Then the next part of the sentence is really confusing and it just gets worse and worse. How does "tomato sauce" replace "marinara sauce" in Canada and the US? Confusing. I thought that it was only in the US that marinara refers to a tomato sauce containing no meat and no seafood (called Napolitana in Australia from my experience, as it is in Italy, while it is apparently called Neapolitan sauce in the US). Likewise Australia uses Marinara to refer generally to seafood being contained in the dish, which I thought many countries did with the exception of the US. Asa01 06:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

OK I plan a major edit/delete of the confusing elements of this article. I have saved the most confusing section below. Asa01 08:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Marinara sauce (from Italian alla marinara 'sailor style') is another term for a simple and generally quickly made tomato sauce for pasta made without meat and usually including tomatoes, onions and herbs. This usage of the term is confined to the United States, while in Italy it refers to seafood sauces for pasta, risotto, or pizza (with or without tomato sauce). Marinara sauce is spicy, often made with large amounts of garlic and chile pepper, but not to the degree of Fra Diavolo sauce. It can be used for any dish that requires tomato sauce, and is generally quicker to prepare than other tomato sauces. It is often used as a dipping sauce for foods such as calzone and fried mozzarella sticks.

Other common regional Italian tomato sauces include Amatriciana (diced tomatoes and pancetta), Arrabbiata (chile pepper), Vodka sauce (vodka and cream), Salsa Cruda (raw tomatoes), and Puttanesca (olives, garlic, anchovies). Most of these well-known sauces are typical of Roman and Neapolitan cuisine. Tomato sauce and pasta (much like olive oil) were rarely consumed in the North of Italy until they became increasingly available, beginning in the 1960s.

‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› 

In the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and India the term "tomato sauce" normally refers to the condiment otherwise known as tomato ketchup, whereas in Canada and the US, "tomato sauce" replaces "marinara sauce" and never refers to ketchup. In these countries, other sauces made with tomatoes are more usually referred to as pasta sauce etc., depending on their uses. In Australia, the term marinara often refers to a tomato-based seafood dish such as spaghetti marinara or marinara pizza.

Some Italian Americans use the term "gravy" to refer to tomato sauce, especially a tomato sauce with meat. "Sunday gravy" is a common type of long-simmered tomato sauce containing meat (often pork or meatballs; similar to an Italian Neapolitan ragù) that is often identified with Italian-American home cooking. It is generally served over pasta. Others just use the term "sauce" to refer to tomato sauce.‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› 

Pizza sauce generally refers to a thick, smooth sauce used as a pizza topping. It is similar to but not identical with a marinara sauce, and they are not considered interchangeable. It is, however, not universal; some pizza styles prefer a topping made of sliced, diced, or ground tomatoes with minimal seasoning.

Escoffier included a tomato sauce recipe using salt pork, butter, and a liaison of wheat flour as one of the mother sauces in his master work, Le Guide Culinaire, but it is not commonly used in French cuisine.

Tomato sauce is also used to some extent in Greek cuisine; it is commonly long-simmered and generally spiced with cinnamon and other typical Greek spices. Tomato sauce is also common in Filipino cuisine, where it is almost universally preferred sweet.

Health after exposure?

Are there exposure issues with tomato sauce of any sort? Ala egg salad, are there any health risks after being out warm or at room temperature for a number of hours? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.222.217.206 (talk) 11:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

Unless the tomato sauce was left in the heat and went off, I don't think there'd be anything wrong with it. Of course, don't go eating it if it looks green or has mold on it - I don't want to be done for food poisoning! Think outside the box 11:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I left a whole pot out overnight after forgetting to put it away, since there was so much of it I couldn't bear to throw it out. I just made sure I heated up to sufficient (140+ F) temperature before reserving. I'm still here.

Escoffier

Can we mention something about Escoffier adding this to the mother sauces? I can write it when I get some time--Chfprd 05:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Dead Horse

Is there any reason why the term "Dead Horse" is used as a term to describe Tomato Sauce in Australia? I dont see the connection between sauce and horse apart from that it rimes.--MattyC3350 01:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's rhyming slang. Zsero 01:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Which, of course, makes little sense to us Nauth American's who still have all of their R's. 69.95.240.178 (talk) 18:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Speak for yauself. In boston we've proudly dropped the R when it comes before a consonant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 20:28, 2 January 2010 Perhaps, like the dead horse, there's no point in beating a tomato sauce? (UTC)

Recipes

I think removing all the recipes goes too far. There ought to be links to a few recipes, preferably representative of different styles. I think three or four such links would be ideal. But which ones? -- Zsero (talk) 15:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sunday Gravy

I was redirected here from Sunday Gravy, but the term isn't used in the article. Either something should be added in this article explaining what the food is, or 'Sunday gravy' should have its own page. -- Rosie85 (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done -- 14:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Mexican Sauces

I would like to see a source for "Mexican tomato sauces usually contain large portions of Corona Light or home brewed tequila. " This is the first place I have ever heard this. It is especially questionable since 1) Corona Light was invented for the American market 2) Tequila is not brewed. The result of brewing agave in pulque which is then distilled into tequila 3) I have never heard or seen "home brewing" of tequila in Mexico since it is a pretty labor intensive process. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.196.102.28 (talk) 21:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

White Sauces

I suggest removing the line "Most often, Italian tomato sauces can be switched with more authentic white sauces". This seems to be giving a point of view, and it isn't terribly accurate to say. As anyone who has visited Italy can say. Whether the sauces are red or white depends on where you are and the occassion of the meal (and the tastes and preferences of your hosts). It may be more accurate to mention whether white sauces came before red sauces historically. But to suggest that one is more authentic seems off here. Tomato sauce is now an authentic italian food. And where does that leave Pesto sauce? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 04:07, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Tomato sauce in the United States

I have not changed this section, but it clearly needs some further explanation or alteration: "In most of the U.S., "tomato sauce" refers to a tomato purée with salt and small amounts of spices sold in cans. This product is considered incomplete and not normally used as it is. Instead, it is used as a base for almost any food which needs a lot of tomato flavour, including versions of many of the sauces described on this page." I have never heard anyone in the US describe refer to tomato puree or crushed tomatoes in a can as Tomato Sauce. It's true that this forms the base of most Italian American tomato sauces, but few would call it a sauce on it's own. Is the writer trying to say that most tomato sauces are made from canned tomato products rather than fresh tomatoes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 23:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is what is called "tomato sauce" in the USA. If you buy a can of "tomato sauce", that is what is in it. And no, it isn't a sauce that one would actually use on its own; that's precisely what the article says. -- Zsero (talk) 00:00, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry Zsero, but it appears you haven't shopped for tomato sauce in the US. This isn't the case at all. Most major brands sold in the US: Prego, Ragu, Classico, do not sell puree with minimal spices. Most include some kind of flavoring, such as cheese, meat, onion, garlic, etc. Most are also sold in jars (usually the generics imported ones are in cans, or tomato puree is in cans) and most have 5-10 different kinds of tomato sauce. The only sauce I have ever purchased in the US that consisted of salt, tomato puree, and a small amount of spices, was Pastene (and that is an Italian brand). Most sauces sold in the US, are sauces on their own. You are confusing tomato sauces with crushed or pureed canned tomatoes (which contain tomato (crushed or pureed), salt, spices (in some instances). Most Italian American's use these as a base for sauce. Few people I know use anything sold with the label Tomato Sauce as a base. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 01:55, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Prego, Ragu, etc. are all sold as pasta sauces, not tomato sauces. Your last sentence is the whole point: Few people I know use anything sold with the label Tomato Sauce as a base. But this section is about precisely that substance that is sold with the label "tomato sauce". What do you suppose it's used for? -- Zsero (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Tomato sauce and pasta sauce are interchangeable terms in the US. What you are describing is canned tomatos (crushed, whole or pureed) and that isn't what people in the US call Pasta Sauce. At the very least, the claim needs to be cited properly. This is something I have never heard, and I am an Italian American who has lived in the US my entire life on both coasts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC) Zsero, have you ever shopped for tomato products in the US?

Zsero seems to have hijacked this portion of the article. The given definition of tomato sauce in the US makes no sense. There might be some product sold as "tomato sauce" to which Zsero is referring, but that is by no means what most Americans consider to be tomato sauce. Tomato sauce is basically "marinara sauce" or any red sauce made from a base crushed, puréed or concentrated tomato, prepackaged or homemade. I think the vast majority of Americans would agree to that. This type of reasoning, holding up one verifiable source against common knowledge, has become all too common on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.219.113 (talk) 11:06, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Never heard of any american using the terms ZERO describes. 173.48.18.151 (talk) 00:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

In American supermarkets, a very common canned food product product, normally found next to the canned diced tomatoes and such, is the canned (tinned, for our European readers) product that is labelled "tomato sauce," and is normally sold under the same brand names as the diced tomato products, rather than the brand names of the common pre-made tomato pasta sauces (though of course there is some overlap here). Most brands are not much more than a salty tomato puree, though some have spices added. It is much more likely to be used as an ingredient in a recipe than consumed as it comes from the can.

A brief search with Google Images brings up a page with a picture of one of the common products, showing a typical label with the typical wording:

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/furmanos-tomato-sauce-6-10-cans-cs/10610463.html

Ready-prepared tomato pasta sauce, on the other hand, usually is sold in glass jars rather than tin cans (at least when sold through outlets intending it for home consumption; when packaged for a restaurant supply house it will normally be in packed in the large #10 size tin can), though there are exceptions, and the label typically says "pasta sauce," "spaghetti sauce," or "Italian sauce." Thus:

http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/156116/Prego-Spaghetti-Sauce.htm

The pasta sauces are typically denser and heavier in texture, and much spicier (basil, oregano, garlic, and onion predominantly in most brands), than the "tomato sauce" products. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 16:17, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Missing citations and poor references - also the 'Ketchup' conversation.

Fourth paragraph quote: "In countries such as Britain, Australia, New Zealand and in Southern Africa the term 'tomato sauce' is used to describe a condiment similar to that known in the USA as 'ketchup'.[1]"

However the reference is to http://journals.worldnomads.com/leah/gallery/13544/384186.aspx - which is a picture of a meat pie with sauce and a caption. Maybe an example, but hardly a reference and much has been added by the wikipedia author. Maybe this section should be removed.

There is an opening blurb that says: This article is about the sauces often used with pasta or pizza. In some countries, "tomato sauce" means ketchup. And part of the first paragraph reads: A tomato sauce is any of a very large number of sauces made primarily out of tomatoes, usually to be served as part of a dish (rather than as a condiment). Then lower down, there is a section on tomato sauce in Australia which says that it commonly refers to a sauce similar to American ketchup.

What I'm trying to illustrate here is that the first two statements contradict the Australian tomato sauce section, can't be referenced and I think the first needs to be removed and the second tidied up. Australian tomato sauce is still a tomato sauce, and fits the generalised description. No references can be given to support the former statements, and what an "average" Australian considers to be tomato sauce is covered by the article.

Further, it is improper to forward readers to "Ketchup" when they're looking for Australian (or non-American English-speaking world) tomato sauce. Ketchup is not the same as the type of tomato sauce. (Maybe ketchup itself should be referenced in the US section.) Belfry (talk) 11:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Mexican sauce

"Tomato sauce was an ancient condiment in Aztec food" ??? Reference please! "Tomato (not souce) was an ancient ingrediente in Aztec food" perhaps...--Schellenberg (talk) 20:33, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Florentine Codex. This was linked previously. The translation is sound, or feel free to find someone to translate it from Spanish for your edification Here is an essay on the subject from Oxford http://oxfordre.com/latinamericanhistory/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199366439.001.0001/acrefore-9780199366439-e-655

Commonwealth

I live in the UK, and I have never used the term "tomato sauce" used for anything other than a fresh pasta sauce, nor heard it used that way. Calling ketchup "tomato sauce" is entirely absurd to me. I'm not sure about the other Commonwealth countries. Can we get some citations to support the claim that "tomato sauce" refers to something akin/identical to ketchup? Otherwise the section ought to be removed.--Newbiepedian (talk · contribs · X! · logs) 16:45, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

In South Wales ketchup is written on labels, but no-one calls it that. Red sauce or tomato sauce. Stub Mandrel (talk) 15:09, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I also lived in the UK until recently (birth to early thirties) and I can confirm tomato-sauce is used for ketchup, at least in the areas I've lived; Hampshire and Midlands. It caught me out at first now I live in San Francisco. --rhs98 (talk · contribs · X! · logs) 10:09, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

In Australia, tomato sauce (which my father referred to as "dead horse") usually comes out of squeeze bottle, goes on pies, sausage rolls, and at barbies etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.80.2 (talk) 01:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm from Yorkshire and most people here would first think of ketchup after hearing tomato sauce and usually a mixture of the two is used. People are more likely to call a tomato sauce made for pasta 'pasta sauce', although on menus dishes would be referred to as being 'with a tomato sauce'.

I'm from the Midlands. I grew up calling "ketchup" tomato sauce, as did my parents, who were born before WW2, and their parents, who were born before ww1. Mind you, neither them saw pasta sauce outside italy until the 1970s and so they would not have had a need to call anything else by the name "tomato sauce". Even in the 80's, we probably just called it "dolmio" after the leading brand of the time.151.170.240.200 (talk) 08:20, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Newbiepedian We have always called Ketchup "Tomato Sauce" and ketchup by contrast is never used. I've lived all across the UK, and heard both. Why is this still disputed? 81.174.170.144 (talk) 18:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Just the facts, people. Mexico is the country of origin for Tomato Sauce.

Been seeing a lot of revisions, probably well intentioned, that implies Italy was the country of origin for tomato sauce, which is proven incorrect by a simple glance at the Florentine Codex. In it, Fray Bernardo describes a tomato sauce with the primary ingredients (presumably tomatoes, chilis, and salt in a stew) primarily found in Italian cookbooks several hundred years later. Let us not rewrite history. It would be more correct to create a wiki specific to the tyoes of tomatoes sauces that arose in Italy 200 years after its discovery in the new world.

Where is it in the history prose? Only the Itaian version can be found with no mention of Aztec origins. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 12:05, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

There needs no correlation between a cookbook mentioning a previous incantation of the object for the latter to have existed. As we know, there are myriad examples of different cultures developing the same style of cuisine. Only that here: 1) we have already established that the Florentine Codex, as also described in the Oxford article link (re-added here http://oxfordre.com/latinamericanhistory/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199366439.001.0001/acrefore-9780199366439-e-655) establishes without probable doubt that Tomato sauce as we know it (meaning combined with peppers like bell peppers and tomatoes in a stew, in an area where salt and onions were already available) was already in markets of Tenochtitlan, and 2) all the ingredients for making what Italians would eventually cite as needed for a tomato sauce were all available and in use in Mesoamerican cuisine.

I believe the contention here is on the term “Tomato Sauce” as has been popularized in the US to mean an Italian version of it. However, “tomato sauce” is already heavily marketed in the US and other countries as simple liquid tomato. “Pasta sauce” and its variations are well established as a separate creation altogether, vis a vis in grocery stores.

I understand that this page has some Italian history tagging, but the product is simply no more Italian than polenta, in that these were already in the new world and have a simple name change. One needs look no further than to remember when anyone asks for a “xerox” or “kleenex” when they only mean the utilitarian understanding of it and not the literal product.

The utilitarian description of “tomato sauce” is simply that: the most basic of sauces. No need to convolute it with being interchangeable with, say, marinara or arriabata sauce, as they serve no other purpose outside of showing a further iteration of the original.

Under the french section we have also established that tomato sauce in s a mother sauce, yet it has no resemblance to pasta sauce; It’s simply a rehashing of the original mexican tomato sauce.

“Where is it in the history prose?” The first western person to write of what may have been a tomato sauce was Bernardino de Sahagún, a Franciscan friar, who made note of a prepared sauce that was offered for sale in the markets of Tenochtitlan (Mexico City today). Of this he wrote (translated from Spanish), They sell some stews made of peppers and tomatoes — usually put in them peppers, pumpkin seeds, tomatoes, green peppers and fat tomatoes and other things that make tasty stews.[4] — Florentine Codex (1540-1585)

Btw this was already included on the wiki under Mexico

Under Description in the wiki, we have already written: “The simplest tomato sauce consists just of chopped tomatoes cooked down (possibly with olive oil) and simmered until it loses its raw flavor. Of course, it may be seasoned with salt, or other herbs or spices.”

With Wikipedia’s own accepted understanding of tomato sauce as cited above (the simplest of tomato sauce consists of just chopped tomatoes cooked down), that excludes Italian sauces from being the origin of tomato sauce, as again, this sauce was already in use in Mexican cuisine for entomatado foods.

This information should be reflected right away in the History section; I've done so. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

IMUH you don't know the difference between sauce and soup --Schellenberg (talk) 15:14, 7 May 2019 (UTC)