Jump to content

Talk:Georgian Jews

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Khazar-Theory dubunked for Georgian/Russian Jews

[edit]

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100603/full/news.2010.277.html

To elaborate:

http://www.imninalu.net/Khazars.htm

Most of East European Jews migrated from the west to the east of the continent, and were not descended from the inhabitants of the Khazar Empire. They are actually a fusion of Balkan-Greek Jews from the Byzantine Empire, Babylonian Jews from the Abbasid Caliphate, Yiddish-speaking Jews from Germany, Sephardic Jews fleeing the Spanish inquisition, and Khazars. All these groups intermarried over the centuries, so that the Khazar converts disappeared as a distinguishable ethnical entity and their descendants became fully Jewish with Israelite ancestry.


--Wind2112 (talk) 03:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

documentation

[edit]

Any documentation about the recently added remark about Gruzim in Austria? -- Jmabel 20:50, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

I wrote User:82.166.133.248 asking him if s/he could provide a source for the assertion. I've made a pretty thorough search of materials as well as a couple of google searches. My offline searches have turned up nothing, and the google searches that say that some Gruzim moved to Austria are just mirroring the assertion in wikipedia...not exactly authoritative. Tomer TALK 01:03, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Total population figures show 3200 georgian jews living in Georgia. Body of the article shows 13,000.

Inconsistent.

David Hiskiyahu. DavidHiskiyahu (talk) 21:10, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

research

[edit]

eventually, i plan to get around to doing some research on georgia (not the state, though i might do THAT, too).

i basically know the, well, basics:

  • it's in the caucasus
  • it's people are called georgians
  • it's language is the georgian language

not very impressive, so far...

Gringo300 09:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As a Georgian Jew, I can tell you that this page is full of errors. First of all, Georgian Jews do not refer to themselves as Gruzim, nor are they referred to as Gruzim by other Georgian speakers. They call themselves Ebraelebi, or Kartveli Ebraeli. The word Gruzim itself is erroneous, and has nothing to do with the Georgian language - GRUZINI or GRUZINIM is used by Hebrew speakers to refer to Georgian Jews. It is not a Georgian word, and definitely should not be used to classify Georgian Jews. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Irawolfe99 (talk • contribs) 22 May 2006.

I'm guessing that you know the topic better than those who've been working on it. I'd say "please, edit", but I'd also add that we'd greatly appreciate if you can provide citations, given the WP:NOR policy. - Jmabel | Talk 01:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Gruzim"

[edit]

Agreed that neither the Georgian Jews themselves nor other Georgians call them "Gruzim", but isn't this the common name in Hebrew? And therefore worth mentioning? It has now been completely removed from the article except, oddly, in the phrase "the Gruzim speak the languages of the peoples surrounding them." - Jmabel | Talk 19:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you meet a Georgian Jews, they will be offended by this term "Gruzim." You can meet them actually at www.kartuli.com. But if you think it was unfair to remove the name, you may change it however, with help of sources. Thanks Ldingley 19:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Georgian jews called in Israel Gruzinim (more common) or Gruzim and for single Gruzini or Gruzi. It drive from the name Gruzia. So if Georgian jew identify himself Gruzini he means that he is Georgian. In Israel it will be obvious that he means Georgian jew. Now after the change of the name Gruzia to Georgia in Israel they the term Georgim (გეორგიმ) means either Georgians or Georgian jews. Geagea (talk) 10:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Synagogue photo

[edit]

The first photo identified as 'Tbilisi Synagogue' is in fact a bathhouse and has never served as a religious building of any kind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.16.251 (talk) 03:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I have no independent knowledge about this. I hesitate to act on just this anonymous remark. The image comes from here; nothing there seems to say anything about the nature of the building; what is the basis for claiming that it is a synagogue (or for claiming that it never has been)? - Jmabel | Talk 19:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The same issue has been raised at Commons:Image talk:SynagogueTbilisi.jpg. The uploader was contacted, and has not responded. I think the prudent thing to do for now is to remove the image from the article. - Jmabel | Talk 19:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"related groups" info removed from infobox

[edit]

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 21:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tbilisi Synagogue Pic

[edit]

Perhaps this recent photo (Jan. 2007) of the main Tbilisi synagogue (built in 1904), after it underwent major restoration work could be used? http://www.flickr.com/photos/smooglie/366377447/

56 in Russia?!

[edit]

...and yet I, an ethnic Russian-Ukrainian and atheist with no connection whatsoever to Georgia or Judaism, having spent only 3 years of the past decade in Russia, personally know about 10 of them (and yes, they were Georgian Jews, not Jewish Soviet nationals who have lived in Georgia)? Highly, highly doubtful. Anecdotal evidence from personal conversation points to Georgian Jews identifying themselves as 'Ethnicity - Georgian, Religion - Jewish', when in Russia, probably to avoid a lengthy ethnographic explanation (much like many Soviet expatriates often identify themselves as 'Russian' when living abroad, for simplicity's sake). Aadieu (talk) 02:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not complitly anekdota. During the short live freedom of Georgia in 1918-1921, where two students Yosf and Mikhil khnanashvili that make an assumption that the Georgian jews are ethnic Georgian that racieve the Jewdaism. that assumption become popular among the Georgian elita. the claim was that thiere is no need different organisation for jews because they are Georgian baicly. more then that, whene tha Nazis were in the north borders of Georgia, they made pre-reserch about tha jews in the Caucasus and concluded that there is no evidence that the Georgian jews are Jews and it should be more reserch about that. Anyway the idea is interesting but more likly not true. the Georgiaan chrinicals tels us that the jews revieve holy Nino whene she came to Georgia fo her misionery trip. Geagea (talk) 12:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prominent?

[edit]

What makes Anzor Haimson notable enough to mention as a "prominent" Georgian Jew? A web search suggests that he is a jeweler, but indicates no particular notability. I suggest removing from the list. - Jmabel | Talk 16:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly Jakov Katsobashvili. No online mention outside this article. - 16:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Conversely, Nodar Djin (born Nodar Djindjihashvili) probably should be linked; he probably deserves an article. - Jmabel | Talk 16:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not a lost tribe of Israel

[edit]
The origin of the Georgian Jews, as well as the others in the Caucausus, is most likely from a combination of the Judaean exiles from the destruction of the 1st Temple by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar, and the Judaean exiles from the destruction of the 2nd Temple by the Romans, as well as later migrations of Jews from the Middle East and elsewhere.
There is no basis for the claim that Georgian Jews are descendants of the Israelites from the northern kingdom exiled by the Assyrians under Shalmanezer, who were resettled in the Habor region (northeeastern Syria/upper Mesopotamia) and the cities of the Medes (northwestern Iran), but ultimately became the "10 lost tribes of Israel", who quite simply cannot be accounted for (only the Samaritans' claim of descent appears to have validity). It was the descendants of the Judaean captives of Babylon and those who returned to Jerusalem during Cyrus, who adopted normative Judaism in the days of Ezra the scribe, when the Torah was canonized.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 21:55, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, but it is a idea that exist and should be mentioned in the article. Geagea (talk) 18:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe useful

[edit]

Hello, maybe these photos might be useful.

Regards,--Diaoha (talk) 18:20, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on History of the Jews in Georgia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:42, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on History of the Jews in Georgia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:59, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Blood libel

[edit]

There’s a section claiming blood libels continued to happen but it isn’t backed up by a source, nor have I been able to find one. 92.3.59.71 (talk) 19:06, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 November 2024

[edit]

Georgian Jews → History of the Jews in Georgia (country) – I was asked by IZAK to make this as a technical move, but I think it needs confirmation via RM. These articles are standardized at titles beginning "History of the Jews in...", but there have been various alternative endings to the title proposed and/or used at various times, including "History of the Jews in the Republic of Georgia" (this isn't a great one because Georgia obviously has a much longer history than any single political entity), "History of the Jews in Georgia", etc. What should the end of this title be? Thanks. asilvering (talk) 20:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose This is not an article on the history of the Jews in Georgia. This is an article on a specific Jewish ethnic group that happens to be named after Georgia as its country of origin. Ashkenazi and Mountain Jews have their own historical presence in the country of Georgia and neither's history therein is covered by this article.
An article for all Jews of any ethnicity is instead under construction at Draft:History of the Jews in Georgia, where you are welcome to contribute instead. Orchastrattor (talk) 22:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As clearly stated in the lead, a majority of the ethnic group in question does not even reside in Georgia. Orchastrattor (talk) 22:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Orchastrattor: Jews do not have to be currently living in a country for them to have had a long Jewish history in their countries of origin. Many countries that once had lots of Jews in them are no longer home to that many Jews but that does not detract from the HISTORY of the Jews in those countries. Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Mountain Jews and even Bukharan Jews do not belong to a specific country they are sub-divisions of Jews by their broader more general geographic and even historical origins, meaning that Ashklenazi Jews come from Europe, Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews come from North Africa and the Middle East, Mountain Jews live/d mainly in the Caucasus and in many parts of the Russian Federation, but ALL Jews are ethnically and religiously Jews. IZAK (talk) 20:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, and all of those groups have their own articles separate from their respective national history articles, why should Georgian Jews be any different? Orchastrattor (talk) 01:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You missed my point because Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Mountain Jews and even Bukharan Jews do NOT have "their respective national history articles" since they don't have "nations" of their own for a history, unlike for Georgia (country), which is a nation/country hence its Jews have their own history in/about it. Take a look again. IZAK (talk) 11:32, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, "Georgian Jews" are not the same as "Jews within the country of Georgia". There is plenty of information on the "history of Ashkenazi Jews in Georgia" that this article does not and should not cover, just as the "history of the Jews in Georgia" would not cover the "history of Georgian Jews in Israel" as this article does. The fact that they have "Georgian" in the name is just semantics. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:20, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It makes no difference what types of Jews are in Georgia, if they are Jews within the territory of Georgia they qualify, as Jews, for being in the article about the history of the Jews in Georgia. By the way, if we are going to have an article about the history of the Jews in Georgia in any case, even according to you with your suggested split up of articles, then this entire discussion might be moot. IZAK (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't vote support if you do not support moving the existing article, that's how requested moves work. Georgian Jews are notable outside of the history of Georgia and therefore should have their own article that excludes other Jewish groups in Georgia but includes the Georgian Jewish diaspora in Israel and elsewhere. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:51, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Orchastrattor: We need to make some headway here and not go around in circles talking at cross-purposes. I propose that the section Georgian Jews#History that is about the history of the Georgian Jews be moved into Draft:History of the Jews in Georgia where it really belongs. Then we can have two articles: Georgian Jews as well as History of the Jews in Georgia (country). Shall I make these changes or would you like to? Then, maybe after that is done, the (1) Georgian Jews article can elaborate more on the (2) Georgian Jews in Israel or maybe even merge (1) and (2). IZAK (talk) 23:39, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The information is relevant to both articles, there are no changes that need to happen on this page. Orchastrattor (talk) 05:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
oppose per Orchastrattor. this is a distinct ethnic group, not the general presence of Judaism in modern Georgia ... sawyer * he/they * talk 00:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, or alternately, I support a split, per @Orchastrattor:, because if you read the article the bulk of it is about the HISTORY of the Jews in Georgia and only a small part is about the Georgian Jews as a TYPE of Jew and NOT as an "ethnic group" which they are not because they are ethnically Jews, and perhaps are a sub-group of Jews by nationality of being from Georgia. They are a TYPE of Jew and for that there are some similar articles such as Moroccan Jews (not an ethnic group but a type of Jew) so there is still nevertheless an article about the History of the Jews in Morocco as well as American Jews (a type of Jew) and Israeli Jews that also has an article for History of the Jews in the United States and History of Israel, while there remain a tiny minority of stand alone articles for Yemenite Jews and Bukharan Jews which should also be split up and have their own articles about their HISTORIES because, like Georgian Jews, they are Jews and not a different "ethnicity". The bulk of the articles about Georgian, Yemeni, and Bukharan Jews deal with their HISTORY so the correct solution is to do what exists in the case of Moroccon Jews, American Jews, Israeli Jews, and have articles about each of their histories as well. IZAK (talk) 20:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    there is already a draft in works so there is no need to declare support for anything - this is a requested move, not a split proposal. the issues you describe can be fixed by simply editing the article so that it doesn't have such an unclear scope, and adding to the draft so it's ready for mainspace. please also see WP:CAPSLOCK ... sawyer * he/they * talk 20:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have now clarified my position to reflect my thinking. IZAK (talk) 20:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unsure @IZAK: At a glance, most of the article relates to the history of the Jewish people in Georgia, so I could envisage an article titled, "History of the Jews in Georgia." However, what do you propose to do with the content under the sections: 'Demographics,' 'Language,' and 'Aliyah and the diaspora outside of Georgia'? 04:37, 16 November 2024 (UTC)LeónGonsalvesofGoa (talk)[reply]
@LeónGonsalvesofGoa: I don't see what the problem is, it is all part of their Jewish history thus it should be part of the History of the Jews in Georgia because it all comes back to their roots in Georgia, like all other such articles. IZAK (talk) 00:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that 'Demographics' includes historical information. I suppose one could argue that 'Aliya and diaspora outside of Georgia' could be retitled as 'Notable Individuals,' as the current title seems distinct from 'History.' I'm unfamiliar with the term 'Aliya.'
If we can find a place for the 'Language' content, I would support retitling the article as you have suggested. LeónGonsalvesofGoa (talk) 06:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Separate the two per the above discussion between User:Orchastrattor and User:IZAK. A principle of WP is to make content accessible to the enquiring reader; each topic is likely to be searched according to consisting page naming. Having a page on Draft:History of the Jews in Georgia vs. Georgian Jews will satisfy each condition. -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I worry that there isn’t enough content to justify having two articles. What if we kept the current article and created a redirect page for ‘History of the Georgian Jews’ to redirect to the ‘History’ section? Otherwise, it would be less likely for someone to find content related to ‘Language’ if they simply searched for it. LeónGonsalvesofGoa (talk) 04:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Georgian_Jews&oldid=1258707702"